Page 1083…
Howdy all.
So…what do you think about where this is going?
We still have a LOT of story left in this King Arthur flashback. So I hope you’re enjoying all of this.
It will explain a LOT!
On that note. Doing my research…the first Vikings that found the new world discovered Native Americans who painted themselves in Red Paint.
Hence the term “Red Man”.
My thinking is…this wasn’t a derogatory term. But a pretty straight forward description of people who literally painted themselves Red.
But as always. I’d like to learn from others (I know we have quite a few Native American readers) and make sure that my handling of this part of The Dreamland Chronicles history is both acurate and sensitive.
You all helped me out tremendously when dealing with the Centaurs and their relationship to the Native American Tribes.
I’d appreciate any feedback along this storyline.
🙂
And now for a bit of a copy and paste from yesterday.
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Scott
As far as whether the term “Red Men” is derogatory, keep in mind the speaker. This is a British monarch who has no real world experience with American Indians, with the possible exception of Viking tales. He has no historical basis for belittling them, and in fact shows considerable interest in their accomplishments. Add that to “Red Men” being in quotes, and it is clear he is referring to these people by what they were labeled by others, either the Centaurs or the Vikings.
Also of note, no matter what the century, Nic has a tendency to dismiss notions he does not want to be believed by others, even if he himself actually knows them to be true. Does he know that “Red Men” do travel to Dreamland? Perhaps we will see.
and of course my question from yesterday was answered previously, now that I think about it, when they dealt with the centaurs in the current time period.
Heh… Red men,.. Myths
Oh come on! You Americans and your political correctness! Native Americans were called Indians, and red men! Chinese and Japanese were called yellow men! So what! All the other ethnic groups call the Caucasians white men!
All praise the mighty peyote cactus – bridger of worlds.
I can only speak for myself, and while I probably wouldn’t have worded it quite that forcefully I do believe that Month has got it right on the mark with the idea that “red men” is an easy way to describe these strangers appearing in the dreamlands.
Considering the malleable nature of the land they live in(because in dreams, isn’t anything possible) I’m a little surprised that Nic is so adamant that adult humans can’t come to the dreamlands….unless he’s trying to hide something
I so want to shake arthur’s naivety out of him…
there’s doom ahead of you, doom I tell you. XD
My first thought on reading this was that here was the first evidence we have that Nicodemus has been a liar for a long time.
You are correct about the origins of the term “Red Men”. Being part Indian (Native American) myself, I do not find your usage to be offensive in the least. I also agree with Month than we’re too concerned with political correctness. This is a children’s/young adult geared story. If your worry involves the word “political” then please do not worry. If your concern is if something is offensive, then it’s valid. IMHO
Also, totally agree with Francisco! That was my first thought too! Nic has been lying for a *very* long time. 🙂
I’ve suddenly got this feeling after seeing this that Niccy is responsible not only for what he has done in Dreamland, but that it was people working for him in the “Real World” that caused the Dark Ages. This timeline of course depends on when in time YOUR Camelot is. The historical Camelot, from all evidence we have found, happened around the fall of the Roman Empire, and that Camelot was basically a very short “Summer” of the Britons as they fought the “barbarian hordes” to a stand still for a while. You know. Before he “died” and Camelot collapsed of course. IF this is the general time frame you use for your Camelot, then I’m gonna think that Niccy had much bigger plans than just taking over Dreamland. I think he wanted to destroy hope in the “Real World” too by grinding civilization away and destroying everything he could. I think our dear hero is going to find out that Niccy hurt both worlds and so will have DOUBLE the reasons to drive the dragon out of…well…existence…
First, the hint of contempt from Nic in panel 3, well done.
I have no issue with red men in this usage. Though I think the Vikings found such inhabitants AFTER everywhere you could put Camelot. But then again, there is evidence that people found South and North America even long before that. So I am somewhat torn. I think whatever it is, it would be long distorted word of mouth and hearsay passed down for a prolonged period. So all in all, I think that maybe the only thing that should not be there is the “new world” part, because all Arthurian periods would be before the usage of the term and the only knowledge Arthur would have might be hearsay from vikings and hearsay from centaurs – for all he knows, the people the centaurs converse with are Egyptians or Australian Aborigines, just some “red men” from nowhere near Camelot.
I’m Cherokee and Choctaw, and I have no problem with some 6th century British monarch calling them Red Men. It’s better than “savages.” You’re right on the Vikings finding painted natives, but they came in the 11th century, 500 years after King Arthur. Just a little historical glitch… but maybe Arthur heard about “Red Men” from the centaurs, not Vikings. Anyway, I’m fine with it, and I know other Native Americans who jokingly call themselves red men. It’s a once-racial term that sort of ran its course and now is just shrugged off. At least, that’s my opinion.
Fascinating.
Arthur: “They use something called ‘dreamquests’ in which they can log on to Dreamland.”
Nicodemus: “Is that why they keep calling me an ‘instance mob?'”
I just got hit by the ad sliding in again… it’s safecount.net that wants me to take some kind of survey or something.
red men, or savages, is probably what arthur would have called the native americans, so whether it’s insensitive of HIM or not doesn’t matter. it’s reflective of the european ethnocentric and discriminatory perspective, and arthur, as a brit, is part of that – though the timing seems off for arthur to know about that, i’m sure you’ve done your research and are correct.
the only non-p.c. item here is your choice to RE-NAME their ‘vision quests’ as dreamquests…this is cultural appropriation for the sake of commercial branding (like naming a sports team, the Indians) and is actually inappropriate. change it to vision quests, two separate words, and you’re fine.
Hey, being part Abenaki, I’ve got no problems with it, Scott. Don’t really see how it could be offensive, either.
Keep callin’ us red men, and we’ll keep callin’ you white men! LOL Just kidding.
I suppose it all depends on the “when” of Arthur. If he is supposed to be from some time in early Dark Age Britain (say, ~450-650 CE) then he would not have heard of “Red Men” from the Vikings, as they did not discover the North American continent until after 1000 AD. Incidentally, they used the word “Skraeling” (“foreigner”) to describe any Native American they encountered.
If Arthur heard it from the Centaurs, then I suppose it would all depend on what the visitors were wearing or decorated. If they had their red paint on, then I suppose “Red Men” would pretty well describe them.
My concern is over Arthur’s use of the term “New World”. Given the state of geographical knowledge in those days, I can’t see any reason why Arthur would know that the Red Men didn’t inhabit some distant part of far off Asia.
The vikings who did reach America had travelled from Greenland and Iceland before that and for the most part the ones settled in Iceland were refugees from what we call Norway today who wouldn’t accept some upstart warlord who decided to conquer the land to impress a woman.
In Norway, we learn that story practically as soon as we’re out of kindergarten, at least that last part about our first king.
So most of our knowledge on these things come from around the 9th or 10th century on Iceland and I don’t know how much contact they had with other vikings, let alone europeans. Even if Arthur had met viking traders, they would probably be danes from what we today call Denmark.
Based on who the speaker is, a man from the dark ages of medieval europe, red men is probably an abt description that he uses to describe these people as best he can to Nic. Native American or Indian certainly wouldn’t do since both Indian and America are european terms added centuries later. For all we know that could be the description the centaurs have given him and they might have described Arthur as a white man or pale man when conversing with the native americans.
Made me laugh, Silverwolf! Thanks!
In the medieval ages many people didn’t see more of the world than their own farm and that belonged to the local lord, who wouldn’t have let them leave anyway. If you see any maps from that age, most of the geography is based on the cartographer’s assumption of where things would be. I even remember a picture in a book of ancient maps where a 11th century medieval map pictures the world as a rectangular shape, Russia, Europe and Asia and all. I imagine that if there was a proper global map of our world anywhere in those days, it would be located in Dreamland.
Sorry, forgot to enter the entire African continent into the rectangel (or however it’s written in english).
I was going to say pretty much what you said right here in the second paragraph. How Arthur wouldn’t know about a new world. How the red men could be from Mars, for all he knows, But since he’s been talking to the centaurs, and we don’t know whom else the centaurs talk with…
I’m using the less historical and more romantic version of 1400.
The time of chivalry and magic.
🙂
According to my timeline.
The Vikings discovered Greenland 400 years prior to the Camelot of many stories.
Erik the Red did so around 1,000 AD. I’m basing my Arthur off of the Le Morte d’Arthur stylings. The 14th century romantic and chivalry version.
So the timelines would add up.
Thank you so much.
This is the kind of feedback needed.
As for the timeline…
See above.
Thank you.
Great (that you caught the name…not that you saw the ad).
Thanks
That’s something I did not know.
So “Vision Quest” is the proper term?
🙂
Thanks.
This is the Arthur of 1400’s
Hi all…
So thank you first off for the wonderful response. Seems that “Red Men” is a pretty good term for someone from Arthur’s time. And so far…not offensive in this context.
Secondly…
As they’ve mentioned in the comic a few times…this happened about 600 years ago.
That would put Arthur at about 1400 AD.
This is NOT the Clive Owen King Arthur of Roman 600 AD.
This is the Excalibur version. The romantic version of Arthur from 1300-1400.
The arthur of Chivarly and Magic.
So the timeline of Erik the Red finding Greenland around 1000 AD gives us MORE than enough time to have word travel south to Arthur about Vikings and the new world. Not to mention the Centaurs already making “first contact”.
Does this make sense?
My guess is that whatever the king of Dreamland believes is, or is not, the reality of things for Dreamland, that becomes law in some respect. Alex couldn’t fly, or have his super strength in Dreamland if he didn’t believe he did…
So if Nic can make Arthur believe that such a bridge is not able to be replicated, then perhaps that belief would act to prevent such a bridging, thus making Nic’s claims true during that time… But only in so far as a self-fulfilling prophesy would be.
It’s speculation, but it makes sense to me.
Cheers! ^.^
Wooooooooot! “Red Men from the New World” can only mean……Canadian First Nations people! (Or First Nations people from the U.S). And First Nations people were able to get into Dreamland! I am probably a little too excited about this, but this is the first time I have seen First Nations characters involved in webcomics, and as a First Nations person that excites me. Plus I’m overtired, so yeah, too excited!
I can follow it. Seems everyone else can too. ^_^
I understand you wanting to be sensitive to your readers, but you really can’t be sensitive and accurate. Authors can botch their story by trying to be PC and destroying their character’s credibility. “Savages” isn’t a nice term, but it’s accurate given the speaker. “Red Men” sounds like a good compromise, though.
Yes. 🙂
My thoughts exactly!
I’m honestly not so sure why the historical real-world timeline matters so much – if the Vikings (at whatever point in history) had cause to call them ‘red men’, so might anyone in Dreamland that Arthur would have had contact with, completely regardless of what was going on in his non-Dreamland world.
I rather like the idea that they *could* be from Canada or then again could come from Mars … throws a whole new perspective into the story for me!
As a “white” red-man the use of labeling is not and should not be a problem. We all label things because that is how our mind works. We process by description and color. The easiest example is to think about those times you’re telling someone to grab something from the fridge. What do we do? We describe what the other person should be looking for by size, shape, or color if there is more than one of those items.
In my family, we were half native for several generations, marrying other half natives or in some cases, marrying full bloods which brought more native blood to the family. So even though I look very european with blonde hair that’s turning white, I consider myself native even though I do take time to select mixed when the option presents itself in questionaires.
Am I the only one who sees potential for Dan and Nicole to visit Dreamland?
Now I actually feel stupid. You’re absolutely right, and if there is a way, the group (or Alex at least) will know because this is what the sword tells them.
personally, I like the original timeline of the arthur legend better. the 6th century sounds more “logical”, considering how much magic was going on there. 🙂 (also, seeing how the legend itself is already over 1000 years old… 😉 )
didn’t even know there was a different version… learned something new today. 😀
Arthur is clearly planning an invasion of Dreamland. Stop him quickly, Nic.
Just love how things are coming together…
I don’t really see “Red Men” as an offensive term. I just see it as a descriptive term from someone who has a) never really interacted with these people and b) allegedly lived thousands of years ago. : )
well yes it is widely accepted that the Vikings did discover North America (most likely what is today Canada as opposed to Columbus who landed in the Caribbean) around the time period of 1000AD however they named it Vinland. The term “The New World” was first coined after Columbus return in 1492 and probably wasn’t used widely until well into the 16th Century. As has been mentioned previously historians places King Arthur well before this time (many believe the legend arose sometime after the battle of Mount Badon sometime around 490-510 (well before even the Vikings reached America). However popular culture places him sometime during the dark ages. 11th-13th Century along with the Crusades, the stories of Robin Hood and other tales of chivalry (and magic). This would mean Arthur could have heard tales of “the red men” but he most likely wouldn’t have named their land “the new world”. /history geek
Don’t worry, most Americans find it just as absurd as you do.
it should say during the “late dark ages”. Dark ages of it self has a lot of varied meanings to different people. Some use it for the entire period between the Antique and the Renaissance (that is to say the entire middle ages) and some use it only for the early middle ages (up until around the 10th Century when most of the western European kingdoms had been united into proper kingdoms).
Oh Natty. Don’t get me started on my infatuation with the Princess of Mars series.
🙂
Why do you think Alex and Daniel’s last name is Carter?
Thank you!
Ha!
Actually, “Vision Quest” is a coming of age movie about a high school wrestler who falls in love with an aspiring artist older woman, distracting him from his goal to drop 2 weight classes to face the undefeated Brian Shute.
Completely different thing, actually.
🙂
Doh! Why didn’t I realize that sooner?
BTW, Pixar is making a live action “Princess of Mars” movie, based on the Burroughs series. This is after several others have taken a crack at making the movie. Can’t wait!
In the third panel, we can see Nic’s tongue. My roomate in college used to grab his cat’s tongue when he stuck it out sometimes. I just had a vision of Arthur doing the same thing to Nic.
“Who’s got your tounge? Who’s got your tongue?”
“Thob! Cuh i ouwa!”
Most of us “Red Men” have entirely no problem at all with sports teams being named the Indians, Braves, etc. Whether you realize it or not, you are singling us out as something different from the rest of everyone else and assuming that we would be offended by a sports team being named after our race/culture.
Northerners have never raised an outcry about the Yankees, and neither do most Native Americans have a problem with sports teams naming themselves after us. The political correctness police need to stop assuming that everyone finds any little thing that might be derogatory to them, as something that needs to be removed.
Great story, Scott.
And if I didn’t make it clear, I am not offended by the term in the least.
Vision Quest is indeed the correct term, but its a story. I can roll with either term, and neither is offensive to me.
The term Redman would definitely be considered derogatory today but I feel that King Arthur saying it in this instance was not meant to be derogatory at all and simple the best way he had of speaking of a people that he knows almost zero about.
I didn’t bother to mention Africa as the stars would be enough to make it clear that the Red Men didn’t come from the southern hemisphere. However, even if Dreamland possessed an accurate map of Earth during King Arthur’s reign, the term New World wasn’t in use until after Columbus’ first voyage.
I find it amusing, and typically American, that the author is so concerned with being “acurate” that he’ll use neologisms way ahead of their time just to avoid offending people. Oh, and misspell “accurate”.
Really!? Holy Cow!
*runs to check IMDB*
Oh, man; I have until 2012 to re-read the series now (since I last read it an obscene number of years ago).
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0401729/
Ha! I can totally picture that!
Of course, I can also picture that being a good way to lose a hand … or an arm …
😉
I, for one, don’t find any of the terminology unreasonable.
This is DREAMLAND, people. There’s no reason Arthur couldn’t have actually met one or more of the people from the “New World” while visiting the centaurs. The term “red men” may have come from a description – either from the Vikings or from the centaurs – or from his own observation that their skin, on average, had a more reddish coloring than the Caucasians, Moors, Africans, Indians, or whatever that Arthur might be familiar with. And there’s no reason he couldn’t have come up with the term “New World” himself, to differentiate in his own mind the origin of the “red men” from both the world he knows in the waking world and from Dreamland. Oh, and for that matter, “Dreamquests” might be a Centaur term, rather than a human term of any sort.
So my humble advice to everyone would be to try not to get so hung up on the language, so that you can better appreciate the content. As in any fantasy story, a little Willing Suspension of Disbelief” goes a long way …
(Oh, and don’t forget to VOTE … )
😉
Scott, did they have MTAC on Sunday? I dropped off my son and a friend on Saturday, thought about getting a ticket just to go see you, and decided I was in the wrong generation when I was told in registration to “talk to the guy in pigtails.” I drove around in the rain while they were there. He had instructions to get your autograph and a photo, but he failed me miserably. I didn’t ground him for too long. Hope your house and all your family is okay after all the flooding.
Not much issue here… though now I’m curious enough to look into the timeline of rulers… 1400s would put this after the Crusades and such, and I’d have thought England had fairly clear lines of rule through that period. Then again, I suppose there’s a difference between being King or Queen of England and some guy who builds his own kingdom somewhere…?
It’s all fiction in this as far as I’m concerned, though. If necessary it can even be viewed as an alternate timeline.
Spending idle time glancing through information on what was written in what, and when (as well as having found a nice list of English Kings/Queens showing a mostly unbroken line of rule (but not unbroken family lines- some families presumably overthrew others at certain ends of reigns) all the way back to 809; one of the few notable breaks was a 13-year gap in the mid-12th Century. And the only names confusable with Arthur are the guys whose names began with Athel-*, the last of which was at the start of the 11th century)… Apparently the earliest mention of Camelot as Arthur’s primary court was put to paper sometime in the 13th century (1200s), in the ‘Vulgate Cycle’ of works… Before that, it was only mentioned in passing with a story that introduced Lancelot (reportedly written in the 1170s).
… from what I can tell, it’s really hard to say when he was in power based solely on the myths and legends, but it’s rather clear it was a constantly evolving legend ever since Geoffrey of Monmouth wrote his ‘History of the Kings of Britain’ c. 1138, and before that the ‘legend’ was comparatively simpler Welsh traditions/poems/etc. The oldest time frame I’m finding for records is 7th century, just glancing through things… But legends of Arthur of that time certainly wouldn’t have been recognizable to Romance Arthur, anyway (who was described as a ‘do-nothing king’, where as early Arthur was a warrior-king)… He was decidedly more ‘Otherworldly’, apparently, back then, though, as well…
Doesn’t much matter, in any case, I suppose. Whatever makes for a more interesting story, aye? I’m pretty sure that’s what Geoffrey was thinking, that’s for sure.
Thank you very much, Koravel!
Very helpful.
🙂
LOL!
Ha. That IS pretty amusing.
What an idiot…hey…wait a minute!
😛
Sorry your son couldn’t find me on Saturday.
I left early (about 2pm) to get home before the storm really hit bad.
I don’t know about Sunday. I never went in.
There’s also a version of the Arthurian Mythos which has Gwalchmai (Gawain) going to America to found Tenochtitlan (the Aztec capital city), so some tellings of the story had a link between Old and New Worlds.
Forgive me… when I first saw ‘Red Men’ in today’s comic, I was thinking ‘Martians’. Then I remembered that they’re green… not red. (Oops!)
lol. red men as myths, your one to talk nick, your a dragon!
Actually, that makes a lot of sense
BTW dont watch the live action one with Traci Lords, Funny but nothing is right at all in that B rated “Horror”.
Other than the fact that the budget was quite low and you get what the producers paid for.
Oh yeah Traci is clothed…. same chic trying to be a regular actress…. in fact i think she or whoever mad the movie just called up her old screen mates and tried to made a regular movie.
The term “red man” that the vikings saw were, in fact, the now extinct Beothuk of Newfoundland. (It’s pretty much confirmed that vikings landed there, and had the first contact with natives) It’s a descriptive term, IMO. Besides, there’s none left to contest it, so I wouldn’t worry too much.
They painted themselves with red ochre in a yearly gathering. I know that the first coat was the symbolize a baby’s “birth” into society, to be a full citizen of the relatively small tribe. Historians only estimate there were about 1000 beothuk in Newfoundland when Europeans arrived. The last one, Shawnadithit died in 1892.
Thus ends today’s history lesson!
I have never heard of this myth, please tell me where I can read more about it.
The Native Americans were actually mentioned for the first time a while ago by the Centaurs.
His Majesty holds a fine argument there 🙂
It makes sense, but, the term “New World” is VERY European colonist, and most people will associate it with such. Arthur could know there was another continent off over the Atlantic I can buy, but “New World” has some very specific connotations, and use of the term seems to have confused and annoyed several readers. In either case, it requires a lot of explanation to smooth away, which is bad storytelling form. Perhaps replacing it with a similar, but not exactly the same, term, will clear up confusion — I can can buy that Arthur could have heard rumors of other places across the sea or, you know, known people from there direction in Dreamland itself, but I can’t buy that he’d have used the same term for it that would be used a few hundred years later. :/
I don’t really remember. I read it many, many years ago as a teen, probably. It stands out because it was the first time I read that spelling of the name. I also remember that he had the only steel weapons around–a Roman gladius (short sword), which the locals tried to duplicate by putting a row of sharp flint/obsidian flakes (or axe-head stones) into a wooden bar. As I said, I read it a long, long time ago.
Arthur: “They use something called ‘dreamquests’ in which they can log on to Dreamland.”
Nicodemus:”They made sequels?”
Arthur:”What?”
Nicodemus:”N-never mind…*ashamed face*”
Amen to that one. Only black people are freaked out when we call them black, and same with yellow people. I don’t actually know enough indians to know if they’re offended, but since nobody calls them red anymore, probably not…
I think the term ‘New World’ is being employed here to give young readers a hint that he means North America.
Also, note that most of Africa is north of the Equator, but your point about the stars remains valid.
Spoiler: the movie flopped.
I’d rather see Dreamlanders in the real word. Specifically, dragons.