Page 1487…
Happy Tuesday!
So… I really appreciate all of the thoughts and insight on this new twist.
It’s really helping me see what points I need to explain later on in the story (or which ones I should have explained earlier).
One question I have for you all, today…
WITH EIGHT MORE CHAPTERS TO GO… SHOULD I CONSIDER CONDENSING THE REMAINING EIGHT CHAPTERS INTO FOUR?
As some of you have pointed out… it seems that we’ve accomplished so much already in the story.
There is still so much more to go in the way of the Nightmare Realm, Nicodemus’ body, Merlin, Nastajia’s parents, and Daniel.
But… thinking about it yesterday… maybe these events don’t need eight more chapters to tell?
I’m seriously considering this. Would love to hear your thoughts.
Thanks
Scott
Oh…
And I painted Adam West as Batman too…
First time poster…
I think your going to get a LOT of responses today re: condensing the chapters!
Loving the story to date, and I’d be fine with condensing the remaining chapters from 8 to 4, but only if you promised to DOUBLE the length of each remaining chapter…
I highly doubt that many of your readers are going to willingly vote to see their favorite web comic end early.
Thanks for all of your work to date.
that depends on how much you can condense without butchering the storyline.
also…. if you lose anything that would explain why a certain thing is (seriously, Alex is a derp, but he’s capable of learning and you shouldn’t shelve him!), then don’t do it.
Right now is when Nastajia needs to just say “right, we’ll get on that right after you help us find my parents” and as soon as they don’t require the services of that sanctimonious blowfish, tell her to go bite a hook!
I’m for letting it be! If it takes 8 chapters to explain everything, so be it. Nothing wrong with getting into the “weeds” (details) to explain the who, what, where, and why of it all!
that’s…a really tough question. Personally, i believe a story should be told and not drawn out for the sake of drawing it out. On the one hand, you’re really the only one who knows just how much more needs to be said. On the other hand, you’re telling us there isn’t much more TO be said. On the other other hand, the story should be told naturally–it’ll end when it ends. on the other other OTHER hand, that would mean the end is nigh, and nobody likes nigh ends.
so my vote is for a big BOFFO! on the Batman painting.
I think a general rule is that brevity is the soul of wit. But never leave out important details that your readers will love. That being said, cutting 8 chapters back to 4 sounds a little extreme.
I was never reacting on your story,while i am not so good in writhing English.
Your story is great and you must do it your way.We are only observers and if that is for the next 5 years ,great ,i love it.8 chapters is fine by me.
It really is your choice, Scott, but as a writer (unpublished as yet so there’s little weight to my words here) I know that a story takes as many words – or pages – to tell in full as it takes. The possibility of condensing it really depends on what’s going to happen in the future and whether or not it’s pertinent to the tale. You also don’t want to give the impression of “rushing” the story just to get it complete.
I love this story and I check back very regularly. So far, everything seems paced about right. Condensing it might alter that flow and make the ending very unsatisfactory.
Just my two cents. Take it with a grain of salt if you disagree.
Love the story to this point and would love it to the end.
I’m a bit slow and need a LOT of explaining 🙂 So condensing it too much might take some of the thrill of the storyline away? Maybe condensing on to six chapter and no four?? 😛
I’m trying to decide if your dedicated dislike of Niviene is amusing or irritating. 🙂 I think I’ll go with amusing simply because of your creativity expressing yourself. 😛
Condensing that much is a tough call. If you can do it without sacrificing character development or compromising your vision, then there’s nothing wrong with it. It might be a hard balancing act to compress it without making things feel rushed, though.
Several people above have expressed my sentiments well. While I am eager to see the resolution, it’s simply my impatience for knowing how it all ends driving me…not a desire to see this comic end soon or a concern that you are drawing things out for too long. Truncating the rest of the story by half is a very big decision, and without knowing how you’ve planned it out, we can’t make very good suggestions.
Like Mishaela, I’m writer (also unpublished), and I learned long ago not to trouble myself with how long the story ends up being. Only after it’s written in full can you go back and determine what sequences don’t either develop characters and plot, or provide a needed change of emotional pace. That’s when you can play editor. If you’ve got it written out, then go ahead and play hack-and-slash with the story if you feel it needs it…but I’m of the opinion that you listed out some pretty big story points that deserve time and attention. 🙂
Either way you decide, we’re with you! 😀
Thank you all.
One thing to consider is that I plotted the entire story out 10 years ago.
A lot has changed. Various story points have been accelerated thanks to reader input.
I’ve also grown a lot as a writer and artist.
The thought that everything I wanted to tell could be done in half of the time is actually quite appealing to me.
20 chapters (and well over 2500 pages) is still a major undertaking.
If I could do it…and do it well…it would merely be “trimming the fat” so to speak.
It almost seems like you should break the story into two parts. One part reached its conclusion when Nicodemus was defeated. What we are reading now seems like a second story – the rebuilding of dreamland and/or The Return of the King (sorry, couldn’t help it).
As it is, it seems a bit anti-climactic, sort of “what do we do now?” There is an answer to that question, and it will bring new challenges and new opposition. We have seen hints of that conflict, but it seems that the direction could be more clearly defined.
I realize that we are months past Nico’s defeat and it would take a bit to retcon. I know that it could not easily be done. However, I think treating this as a separate story is one way to go, whether what has gone since Nico’s death is fixed on-line, in a book, or not at all is another matter.
I’m always sorry to see a good story end.
Tell it the way you want it told.
I’m in no hurry to see the end.
The CRUCIAL question is: How much space does the rest of the story NEED?
Only you can answer that question. We can’t.
Do whatever is right for the story, whether it’s 2 chapters or 12 or whatever.
“Trimming the Fat” doesn’t always apply (then again, it doesn’t always not apply). There’s a fine balance between telling and overtelling a story. A good example is found in music. Inagadadavida (sp) needed an editor (and a speech therapist, but that’s another matter). Too long. On the other hand, Come on Baby Light My Fire was trimmed a bit (like two minutes) from the original record so it would fit in the radio station time slots of the 60’s… losing for those early listeners one of the greatest sections of music out there. Could you imagine trimming the fat on American Pie? Or cutting out some of the ending guitar solo on Freebird or Layla?
8 to 4 sounds extreme from the perspective of not knowing in advance how the rest of the story goes. I’d say, though… not to set a precise “I’m going to cut 4 chapters”… but just to take each chapter as it goes. Trim a little fat, but remember that on a good cut of steak, the flavor’s in the fat.
Scott,
Nancy & I had quite a discussion over breakfast this morning. The crassness of youth distilled the discussion down to, “Is he tired of drawing after all this time? Is that why he wants to rush the ending?”
I went on to comment how you might see things differently now, and the story could be told in less time, that more need not equate to better.
She retorted with, “Like why a history paper need be 500 words when it can be told in 350?”
Scott, you are a wonderful storyteller. Far be it from us to tell you the appropriate length of a story we don’t know. As readers we will always crave more of a good story. I’m sure the end will come too soon for us. The reality is, this is your story, you will know when it is finished.
best regards,
Bobbi & Nancy
I don’t typically comment on such things because, after all, it’s just a fantasy comic strip, but this fish thing just really strikes a nerve. That’s because in my life, I’ve run into my share of “Nivienes”. They’re bitter, frustrated people that see others succeeding and going places while they’re stuck going nowhere because of laziness or lack of ambition or whatever and they become self righteous, overbearing snobs who criticize everything. I’m not suggesting that Nastajia and Alex do anything that I haven’t done to the “Nivienes” I’ve had the misfortune to encounter.
That being said, I’ll try to tone it down and be less abrasive.
I say trim the fat, but don’t have a goal of how much fat to trim. Just remove what needs to go to tighten up the story to a result that reads in a way that satisfies you.
I have to agree with posters above, it is always the story tellers decision how to present what he has to tell. It is simply our job to sit back and enjoy, as we have been, the tale being told to us.
If you think that it can- and hould- be done, you have my full support. I first started reading dremland in my childhood home, and reading each new section is almost like.. being there again. I will be sad to see it end, but glad to have seen it through. It’s your story. so long as you think it works, I’m for it. although cutting it in half makes me sad. maybe 5 chapters? Thank you though, fore everything. It’s a beautiful story. I understand that stories evolve over time( just yesterday I changed the tone of the entire climax in a story I’m writing!) so it’s your call. take up as many or as few chapters as you think the story needs.
I read through this comic for the first time back in December. As a reader, the impression that I got then was that the entire ‘story’ was about overcoming Nicodemus. That is just so much of a focus for the first 1300ish pages. All the extras about why Dan couldn’t come to Dreamlands or the disappearance of Nastajia’s parents came across as details to add depth to the world, not necessarily plot points to fully develop (not that I wouldn’t like more details on these of course…).
Now that we are moving on to address these new elements, it feels like a new story. Image at the end of the Return of the King film, if instead of having the 20 minute wrap-up of all those varies stories (Frodo leaving, Arwen/Aragorn, etc.), they had made another movie or two to address them. Not necessarily bad, but it would clearly be a different story than the first three films. That is what I feel is happening here. The main story of the first 1300 pages has ended. Body or no body, we had our epic fight against the dragon, the hero prevailed, and displayed significant growth and maturing in the process.
But now we seem to be shifting to a new character: Dan. In no way bad, but I feel that it would not be the same Dreamland Chronicles that preceded it, since the main problem (as I saw it), Nicodemus, has been overthrown. Perhaps you could call chapters 1 to 16 Story of Alex (overcoming Nicodemus) and chapters 17 to 20/24 Story of Dan (Nastajia’s parents/Dan to Dreamlands) or something…
Either way, it has been a great read with fantastic visuals, and I had confidence that however you continue with this project, it will turn out great. I will definitely be reading it.
TL;DR
It has felt like we’ve been in a different story since Nicodemus fell. If you’re going to continue, my recommendation would be to treat it as a ‘second act’ and try to make it equal to the first (not necessarily in length, but in story), as opposed to portraying it as one.
Of course, 2500 more pages of just Felicity would be equally acceptable 🙂
And in the time it took to type this, similar points have been made…
keep the remaining chapters as is
in my humble opinion, what I love about books are the stories, and ALL the stories need to be told. but that is the beauty of them over movies. for movie sake of course you would have to condense, but for the books, tell it all!!!
I don’t mind the abrasiveness. I think the phrase ‘go bite a fish hook’ will become a common part of my lexicon.
Scott,
I really get the feeling from your words that trimming the story is what feels right for you to do. I say go with your gut! As much as I love Dreamland, the story feels a lot closer to the end than eight chapters. Without knowing your plot, it seems like it would be doable to condense it down! As other readers have said, though, I wouldn’t make it a goal to condense down to four chapters specifically. “Trimming the fat” seems like a good option.
Something else to consider is what you’d be doing next after Dreamland. I know when many webcomic artists (Sarah Ellerton springs to mind) finish a comic it feels so sad to have it gone, but when their next comic comes out it’s even better and more exciting! I’m pumped to see what else you have in your bag of tricks, Scott! You’ve done such an excellent job with The Dreamland Chronicles so far.
I completely understand the need you must feel to “get to the end already” as a writer myself. I think if you can condense by possibly cutting out any unneccessary exposition, that would probably be one of the better solutions. However, I am also of the opinion that a great story shouldn’t be rushed. If the remainder of the plot cannot be completed in four chapters, even if those chapters are longer than usual, then I am also of the opinion that it may be better to “take the scenic route” as it were. But then, you have loads more experience and I’m just happy watching/reading the outcome! XD
Further reflections: perhaps it was just reading through these all at once that the points about Dan not coming to Dreamlands and Nastajia’s parents seemed minor. I could just move on with the story instead of thinking about each page for a day or so. Also, is a subject like the dreamland’s line of succession really appropriate for children on a complexity level? I don’t know much about kids, but considering how many questions are asked about this on the comments section here, I’m just wondering if children would even pick up on some of those details…
Thank you.
I am reading all of your comments.
I’ll chime in from time to time and put down my current thoughts.
IF I decide to cut the chapters down…I would NOT cut anything out.
I think, what is currently rumbling around in my head, is that I would simply tell the story BETTER if I were to trim the chapters down.
On the FLIP side, though.
If I kept the other chapters…maybe OTHER stories would get more time and weight.
Like Felicity/Nicole, Nicole/Dan, Paddington’s family, and other things.
An extra few hundred pages would certainly allow for more time spent with these characters.
This is just the FIRST time I’ve ever considered this. So thank you for allowing me to mull this over with you all.
Quite an interesting conundrum.
🙂
I really see where Poydras is coming from. Now, admittedly the princess doesn’t get on my nerves, however I’ve seen characters before that /really/ rub me the wrong way when they’re made into heroes by both the fiction and fans alike, but they remind me far too closely of… well, let’s call them “fairly unlikable people.”
For such a reason is why I couldn’t force myself to continue watching Doctor Who; it lost it any enjoyably for me.
So yeah, I understand where she’s coming from, myself.
if it can be told in 4 chapters without taking away from the story fine..if it takes 5 do 5 if it takes 6 do 6 and so on. I have read Dreamland everyday from the beginning. So where ever you go with it I will follow
I would say take as much time or chapters as you feel you need to tell the story the why you feel it needs to be told. I just hope it’s a happy ending though. After Mass Effect 3, I dunno if I could handle a sad ending, lol. Thanks for making this comic. Its a good story!
If I might make a suggestion:
If you /do/ narrow it down to four chapters I’d really like to see an epilogue. A chapter (maybe shorter than normal) that recaps how the characters (major and minor) progress beyond the story line, and recapture the general feel of the Dreamland Chronicles for a final time.
Whenever an ending is a tad rushed, and they don’t give me that sense of closure it leaves me with this… hanging feeling, as though the characters were in the middle of saying something, and then I turn the page only to find it blank. Or like when a friend just suddenly leaves your life without so much as a “goodbye.”
If you made sure to bring that sense of closure and a reminder of Dreamland Chronicles, I entirely trust your judgement, Scott. After all, you’ve haven’t exactly let us down so far.
Just my two cents.
In regards to condensing… it really depends on whether you feel the pace would change significantly from what it has been. I think DC has held a solid and fully appropriate pace pretty much from page one, so if you need eight chapters to finish things off right, then go for it, we’ll be here right alongside 🙂
That being said, I don’t know what other considerations you may have, especially RL issues, but those are my thoughts.
My personal feeling is simply that you should have it the length you want it to be to tell the things you want to tell. If you personally believe that there are things that should for some reason be cut and condensed to make the story better, then I would, (somewhat reluctantly admittedly) accept that, but if there’s many arcs you wish to tell in longer 8-chapter detail then go for it! I’ll be checking up to the end either way. : )
As to side stories with Paddington’s family and such, if they don’t really directly contribute to the main story, you could also consider making some of those side vignettes extra content to be included as bonus material with physical-copy books and such. That seems to work well for a lot of web-comic artists to encourage/thank people who support buying their work in a physical form. : ) (Sorry if that’s really old news >.>)
aww….. but i love it when you talk trash about Niviene. especially since I can sympathize with you.
seriously. Do NOT pull a Bioware and produce something that will make your fans scream in agony. 😉
Pro: I love this story. Sometimes it moves too slowly. Condensing would help eliminate frequently occurring miscellaneous panels, that sounds great to me. It’s taken 7 years to get 11 chapters. 8 more chapters could take another 3-5 years. Your then 6 year old boys may by then outgrow the story that is written for them.
Con: This is a kids story. They like pictures. The characters’ emotions are fantastic. Condensing the story could change the dynamics of the story as the authors “style” changes.
Conclusion: Condense: as an artist I am sure that you have other projects in mind and that you can find a way to overcome the cons in order to meet the pros.
Nastajias face in the last panel looks more like the “Not bad” meme,than sad.
Scott:
Should you condense the chapters? You are the artist, and author, it is your call, and we the viewers really have no say in how you tell your story. But, as a reader, and an avid fan, my answer is short and to the point. No. As far as I am concerned, it should run as long as Blondie.
Agape
Lee
I say leave the filler in… I know you have to do a total of 8 chapters, Yet it gives us four more chapters of daily cliffhangers and of course your weekend ones as well leaving us on the edges of our seats until mondays is posted,,, Yes I understand that is a lot of work, time involved complexities of computer software etc but I am still voting for the extra four chapters… I for one am not ready for Dreamland to end…
Whatever you decide, we’ll be with you. It’s been said before, but it’s not less true ^^
I for one like the idea of trimming the fat. If the fight with Nicodemus was the grand finale and this is the aftermath, then you don’t want it to be too long to the end of the story. As it is I sometimes feel it is going slow, though not too slow, just a bit slow. Don’t go any slower *grins*
I am very curious about how things will end up with Dan and if he’ll become king and if Alex will be banned from Dreamland!
You can always add extra “bonus” chapters about Paddington’s family and stuff after.
Scott,
I definitely get wanting to “trim the fat”. and it does seem like if you trimmed things like what you mentioned, it would get the story told more efficiently. However, I also think this is (currently) your one outlet. if your story is going to be told in full, it’s going to be here, because when you eventually get to the movie, it’s going to be condensed even more. the way around that is to finish your story as streamlined as you want, but come back with mini-stories about all those other things you wanted to say, but it didn’t really have a place in the main story.
Scott don’t cut too many corners or else you’ll have a lot of open plot holes and if that’s the case,ever considering doing a sequel-The Dreamland Chronicles Book II?
Tell your story the way it’s meant to be told. Don’t fracture your world or clip your characters at the knees for the sake of brevity, you’ll be unhappy later if you do.
Think of Michener’s novel Hawaii. How good would that have been had he shortened it to around 200 pages to get it out faster? Not nearly so epic, to be sure.
A great story deserves to be told. In it’s entirety.
I am an adult and I liek this story and ma a loyal fan.
I’m fine with it being cut down. In all honesty, I could see things like Dan/Nicole and Nicole/Felicity, etc. being side stories put out separately from the main story. A lot of webcomic artists will release mini-comics about a specific character or situation that’s more outside of the main story.
You should take as many chapters as is necessary to tell the story.
And that does NOT necessarily mean 8. If you can tell the story without it feeling abridged in four, do it. I know a lot of people like lengthy, sprawling stories, but I’m a huge proponent of efficient, pointed narrative.
None of this is to say I wouldn’t love to see 8 more chapters. And if 8 chapters is what it really takes to tell the story, then make it 8. If you can cover everything that needs to be covered in 6, make it 6. And if 4 is really all it needs, then make it 4.
There are situations where shorter is better, even if it means trimming a few important things. And there are situations, I suppose, when longer is always better, though I can’t think of one personally.
This is one of the third type, where you should say what needs to be said, nothing more, nothing less.
Just don’t make it one of those stories where people say “Yeah, it’s great, but the end was kind of rushed” (I just watched such a show) or “Yeah, it’s great, but he really should have wrapped it up a little sooner, it started to drag at the end” and you’ll be fine.
Scott, as in life, kids don’t come with manuals. This is one of your kids. It came kicking and screaming into this world and is still fighting to this day. Some of us love it, some wish for a less willful child. In all honesty, I wish to tell the peanut gallery to shut the hell up. This is your child. Do what YOU want. In the end, I see a fabulous future.
FOUR CHAPTERS ! NOOOOOOOOO ! ! ! ! !
O.K. that’s my first response.
Seriously, are you planning on these last chapters just serving to tie up loose ends; or are they more like a sequel? Don’t skip on the sequel, just because the first part was so good. On the other hand, lots of (movie) sequels are mainly about catching up on the characters and miss out on a plot. If that is the case, make it short.
Personally I want to see the kids rescued from the nightmare realm. Are they having nightmares every night just because Alex is more concerned about pleasing his girlfriend with her quest. I think her parents are more stuck then suffering and it seems that everyone has forgotten the little kids who ARE suffering.
That and rescuing Nastajia’s parents and resolving whatever happened to Merlin and seeing what happens with Alex and Dan and the Kingship/ability to visit Dreamland and…. Assuming it will all be connected into one main story, it seems like you have more than enough to make a good sequel.
Then when it comes time to have a movie, we get TWO. Major plus. 🙂
I’m all for condensing the story if you feel you should/could. I know you won’t condense so much that the story feels rushed and I don’t know what your ultimate climax is going to be, but I’d hate to have a story run so long that you grow tired of it. I’d much rather have a story that concludes (and concludes well!) leaving you satisfied and wishing for more–but knowing it wouldn’t be a good idea–than having a story that dragged itself along with a slower (and unnecessarily so) pacing, like a sitcom with one too many seasons.
I’m not saying your story would end that way, but I can understand the desire to reach a conclusion and move on to other things in your life. If you feel the story ought to be condensed, do so. You aren’t likely to rush things, and I hate stories that drag on too long.
I for one have a love/hate relationship with endings, I hate endings because they always mean that the fun ride is over with and dead, but at the same timeit is better to have an ending so you know how it ends rather than being left with a cliffhanger forever. I’ll try to spell this right
Mr. Imagingo’s Magnificent Emporium
I may not have have the title right but it was that movie about the guy with the toy shop where even the store itself comes to life and things start to go bad cuz the guy decides that he has lived long enough and decides to die and the people closes to him try to make him want to live but he explaines his desire buy useing one of shakespeare’s plays “Macbeth” I think or maybe not it was too long ago for me to remember. He says of how it was a really great story and had this wonderful character and at the end of it he kills of the main character and how does he do it? Shakespeare doesn’t say he was slain or died in any special way he just writes “He dies” palin and simple. And he him self has lived a long and full life with many wonders that no one has ever seen but as great as his life is a story just is not a story with out an ending so when I die tell go ahead and tell everyone my story but don’t cute up the ending or anything just tell them “I died”.
There are some stories I have enjoyed and will continue to enjoy as I continue thru them but those stories will never end because the authors have died or can no longer continue writing becuase they dropped it or life has gotten in the way and that in itself is sad.
So yes in a way I would like this story to come to an end eventually but please don’t rush to meet it because I for one want to enjoy this story for as long as I can, but in the end you are the author you are the God of your story if you truly believe something is for the best then don’t hesitate to do it and if it is not something that we like then we will just have to grit our teeth and learn to accept it.
Yeah resucing the kids and defeating the Nightmare bad guys are 2 good story arcs
For length of time, few can match Niviene’s personal sacrifice. On the other hand, Nastajia has lost family, not to mention part of her childhood. She has perhaps lost sight of the long view, but that’s hardly surprising. And Niviene’s expression in the last panel seems to indicate at least sympathy with Nastajia’s sense of loss.
Regarding the remaining chapters, I’m inclined to say go with the original length if your gut feel is that the story arc works better that way. You’re the only one who actually knows what all is coming and how each character’s story arc fits within the whole. Shorter is okay with me as long as it doesn’t make the story feel clipped or rushed.
Oh, and thanks for asking us. I love the author-reader interaction on this webcomic.
Cheers!
Wow…Niviene’s expression in the last panel is so beautiful and empathetic. I love it. Beautiful work, Scott.
Trust your instincts and go, boy!
One thing I will say. When I was reading “The Lord of the Rings,” I was so thankful for the whole “Scouring of the Shire” chapter because it gave us one final adventure with our heroes before they settled back into peacetime. That there was more to adventure with them following the climax of the journey to Mordor was wonderful and eased me out of the story instead of a jarring end.
So as much more as you would like to give us with these characters, I’m all for it! 🙂
Scott, do what you feel is best. Don’t go Second guessing yourself if you feel this is the way to go.
Longer is better, at least within reason. While there is something to be said for economy of words, I think that telling the story more fully is more important than telling it in an efficient manner, especially when the format is “web comic” and can naturally go on as long as is required, unfettered by having to fit within a single binding as a book, or the span of two hours as a film.
Furthermore, I think that added length here and after would help it feel like a proper act, rather than an overlong epilogue to the act that concluded with the (presumed) death of Nicodemus. Further conflict needs the same build up that the big dragon got.
As for Niviene… I get the feeling she knows something she’s not telling us. Previously, she mentioned machinations of Arthur and Merlin, but the best we know Arthur’s been in stasis and Merlin in a tree for the last thousand years… not machinating at all.
Plot senses tingling… I think she might be trying to push their buttons, getting them mad/driven enough to finish what Arthur started, the amulet that could not only unite Staj and Alex while Dan reigns as king, but ALSO reunite her with Merlin. Of course, she could probably just suggest that, but “Ask nicely” doesn’t occur to some character types.
Scott,
you’re getting very emotional replies from your fans – me included – because they LOVE your story. I would never get enough of it, so for me 4 or 8 chapters would still be too little.
Trying to be less emotional, the point is: overthrowing Nicodemus was the climax point of chapters 1-16.
Continuing the story makes sense if there is an epilogue (which is supposed to be short), or if there will be more climax points, perhaps even bigger ones (and then the story can and should be significantly longer, to have the time to build up at least another story arc, build up the tension, etc.).
At this point in chapter 17, it is barely starting to uncover new elements (like Dan that now COULD become king), and has returned to focus on old elements (the quest for Nastaja parents, Nicole/Felicity…, ).
Honestly, to me 4 chapters more would feel like an overlong epilogue “what happens after Nick is defeated”, with not enough space for the long-standing quest for Nastaja parents and all the other pending situations.
To give enough power to a second climax, I think a bit more chapters would be needed. I agree with many people that said this is in some sense “another” story, and I add that it deservers a proper story arc, not a rushed one.
Having said that, YOU are the author and YOU are the only one to DECIDE.
We will follow you in any case!
I’ll be looking forward to hearing the reason why Dan is so important to Dreamland. Isn’t one king as good as the next, or will things be thrown out of balance?
I agree with you, poydras. People like Niviene have to bring everyone down to their level just because they’ve had a crappy lot in life; because if they’ve had to go through hardship, everyone else should too. Really grinds my gears!
Let the story run however long it takes to tell the story fully. ‘Nuff said.
As for current plotline…..While Dan may be the first in line for the throne, he is no more the ‘True King’ than Alex is. They are both in line for the Throne of Dreamland, as descendants of Arthur. Dan couldn’t take the role due to Nicodemus’ and the Nightmare Realm’s interference. Alex could. Dan might have had first claim, he could not exercise it. At this point, as Alex has taken on the role and burden (as is his right) as far as most monarchies would be concerned, he IS the King. Should he CHOOSE to allow Dan to take his place, or should Dan challenge his right to be King, there would be an issue. But until one of those take place, Alex is rightfully King.
More ‘liberal’ monarchies might also consider the will of the people…..but the only ones who would support Dan over Alex at this point are those who want an inexperienced dreamer on the throne.
So, at this point, I’m highly suspicious of Nivienne’s motives. I mostly suspect that she is simply bitter about her own loss. But there’s a small voice back there telling me that she’s being manipulated by the Nightmare Realm (possibly with the promise of Merlin’s release, or some such) into her pro-Dan stance.
But I still think it will be completely academic, since Dan will (after some hard thinking) refuse to take the crown, and let his brother rule Dreamland, for the reasons I commented on in the previous strip.
Uh, that’s a really easy question to answer. The more Dreamland Chronicles, the better. Eight is twice as good as four. Folks who want four can feel free to leave after the next four, I’ll stay around for the following four.
There isn’t exactly anything else like this in the world, that I’ve encountered.
I want as much as I can get.
Scott, you could have ended the story after Nick “died”, but you took it forward and it continues to take unexpected turns. This dilemma of duty vs. love is a great example. If you plan to have just as much interesting stuff fill 8 more chapters, that works for me. Plus I’m dying to spend some quality time in the Nightmare Realm. Uh, I mean for Alex to spend time there.
Also, I expect you have a grand ending in mind for the story. It would be a shame to cut that short or compromise it for the sake of brevity.
Perhaps you fail to grasp that the “Peanut Gallery” was asked for their thoughts and feedback. So far, that is what they have done, and they have spoken honestly. This is not to say you haven’t.
Scott knows he can do whatever he likes. In this case “whatever Scott likes” includes asking for input from the “Peanut gallery”. Turning around and telling them to STFU would not only be counterproductive, but it would be extremely disrespectful. Knowing Scott IRL, he is many things, but disrespectful is not one of them.
Thank you, that is all.
And also, “Nicodemus’s Body”?!?!??!?!!?
I was figuring he had survived the sword thrust and was just recuperating in the Nightmare Realm, biding his time to strike again! That was a major reason Alex has to remain king, because Dan is not nearly as qualified to go toe-to-toe with Nick.
But then I remembered that Dreamland Chronicles is based on myth and ancient stories. Nickodemus is actually hidden under a rock, isn’t he? In three days, the rock will roll away to reveal……. Ultimate Transformer Autobot Megazord Nickodemus!!!!!!
…. or am I mixing up my myths here?
Gonna cry either way when it’s done… but I’m going to be really sad if you have to condense your work. I think you should keep it at the 8 chapters like you stated, because that way you can state what you need to in the last 8 chapters and not try and cram important parts in. If it was meant to be 8 chapters, it should be 8. 🙂
while it is true that Dan is the firstborn. He was not able to enter dreamland due to the machinations of Nicky and the Wraiths,thus the rule of dreamland fell to his twin Alex. Even the sword has proclaimed Alex as king of Dreamland
I agree with JakesDad. Much has happened in the story so far, and all of it awesome. There is much more we’d like to see, and the stories of Nicole/Nastajia, Dan/Nicole, etc are things that I think have helped round out the story, and I am excited to see where they might go.
Is there a 6 chapter option? Something that still fleshes out some of those tales so they don’t feel unresolved at the end, but that also trims some of the fat?
Also, I’m under the impression that Niviene doesn’t know that Dan can’t enter Dreamland (as far as any of them know anyway). Hopefully she gets a quick education on that fact. For whatever reason, the sword of kings allows Alex to wield it as king of Dreamland. That alone should suffice to satisfy Niviene’s lecture points. As for Dan, the two brothers have both acted together in the kingly decisions of Dreamland (wartime strategy), Dan with the plan, Alex to carry out those plans like a top general would.
If Dan could come to Dreamland and claimed his place as king, he would have. However, there would be no story if that were the case. Niviene strikes me as not being very wise despite her many years. If she were, she would not be lecturing as she is, she would be asking other questions, not making assumptions that somehow Nastajia’s choice and feelings for Alex are what prevents Dan from being king of Dreamland.
Cheers!
I read through some of what others are saying, but not all of it. You asked for it and yes, you’re gonna get a lot of emotional responses. Here’s my take. You’re doing a grand job so far with the story telling and the characters. Look how involved we all are, reading, commenting, purchasing, and loving this world you’ve created. Only you know where the story is going and what it all involves. I’m inclined to say keep telling the story as you see fit.
I think if you feel you can trim some “excess” to clean up the story and still keep things straight, then do it. However I would like to say that I’d hate to see “excess” get removed for the sake of brevity in the storytelling at the loss of character interaction and small charming moments. I mean there’s already a lot in DLC that isn’t a direct necessity to the story (like Kiwi, Paddington’s, and Felicity’s antics in the pirate get-up) but it’s utterly fun and a large part of what I enjoy about DLC. Some of Dan and Alex’s quips back and forth in the library early on probably weren’t necessary for the story either, but I feel like all of that did a lot to build the brotherly relationship and help us all love the characters that much more. So please, I would ask that you not make cuts that would take away from the characters and their interaction together in this world.
I know I’ll keep reading and doing kickstarter drives along with you for as long as this story lasts, 4 chpts, 8 chpts, 10 chpts, whatever. Unless of course we have some cataclysmic world-wide apocalypse. Priorities you know.
Scott,
Ask me again when I know the whole story. 🙂 You’ve been knowing it for ten years already, so it may seem trivial to you by now. We’ve only seen the part already told. Look back at the earlier comments. This far, you’ve been keeping the story fairly unpredictable to us. It still is at the moment. So… how about you keep telling the story until it’s told, then write ‘THE END’ in large friendly letters, and then count the chapters? That’s the best idea I could come up with right off, anyway.
Huh. ‘Dragon’s dead, not much else to tell.’ That’s got to be what JRRT thought when wrapping up the Hobbit, too. 🙂
Oh, and all you Dreamies, young and old, have you voted today? Only 7,834 votes this month. Only #7. No wonder Scott starts to have doubts whether we like the story or not.
Honestly, I find Niviene way too overbearing and completely out of touch with her reality.
She didn’t lose Merlin as much as he passed away. Come on, she had his company for dozens of years, if not more. Nastajia had just reunited with Alex (I take it at most a month or two passed since Alex came back to Dreamland) and now she’s supposed to give him up? Seriously? As demanded by a woman who spent her entire adult life with the love of her life and is now bitter that he wasn’t immortal after all???
Come on, Scott, if she gets her way, I will honestly be way too upset to read on.
You pays your money and you takes your choice – and you know your story well and we don’t. I can only say: You may boil down the plot to four chapters, but I’d recommend to reconsider (and expand it) when you’ll get the impression that the compressed version loses all these amazing punchlines and turns of the first 20 chapters.
It’s hard to say. As a reader following this story, you could easily add in another 8 chapters or more. Right now as it stands the climax was the fall of the dragon, and usually stories don’t continue for very long after the climax. From what I’m seeing in these couple of chapters after, it seems that the event of the dragon’s demise isn’t in fact the high climax of the story at all, but rater it’s yet to come. If that is the case then 4 chapters would severely rush that and I would highly recommend 8 (besides, I love your work). If there isn’t a higher or similar climax then 4 might be the way to go.
Now that’s based on the standard story / movie model, personally I’m selfish and want to see more more more! I’ll be sad to see this end sooner than planned. It’s your story, and your ultimate decision but know that you’ve got a huge fan base here and I think I can speak for a lot of us when I say we’d be sad if it ended early!
Scott, usually your gut instinct is the right one. We as readers will support however you decide to lay out the story. After all, it is YOUR story. We can provide input and food for thought, but ultimately, you have to do what you feel is best for the story and for you. We know this isn’t the only story you’re working on. -Maria
Two things. First one is a comment on the chapters – I don’t think the whole rest of the story should be cut down to four chapters, necessarily. One of the types of story endings I most dislike is when they give an epilogue that only lasts for a few pages and tries to condense “X AMOUNT OF YEARS AFTER Y” into that.
The Harry Potter series, for one. After Voldemort’s death, there was a bit of a recap on things that we already knew, and then some what, five and a half pages on the happenings of twenty years later?
I, personally, would like to see what goes on for a little while after the other storylines have been tied up a bit, before a time skip happens. If it does at all. I know Nicodemus is defeated, so this sort of counts, but there’s still quite a lot left unresolved with everything that you’ve mentioned already. How does Dreamland adjust to the latest change of monarch? How does Earth in general react, should anything about Dreamland, Merlin, Camelot, or magic become public knowledge? What’s the main cast doing in the days after these events are resolved? (And, not knowing how the storylines all end, it’s hard to ask any more specific questions just yet.)
It’s something that Harry Potter lacked, if you want to say that – you saw the immediate reaction of a lot of the people who were there for the events, but there’s no mention of what happened AFTER those ten minutes, how the community in general re-adjusted (what with all those numerous important figures from the peace before now dead), what the cast settled down and decided to do… just a brief mention of the “twenty years later” part.
Basically, it seems like you have so many intertwined-but-separate storylines up in the air right now that four chapters doesn’t seem like enough to provide a complete conclusion to them, if that makes sense?
For an example of what I think a detailed conclusion is, look at the end to The Lord Of The Rings. I know there was a battle for the Shire at the end of it, but even before and after those events, there were a lot of details wrapped up as the party returned home and resettled. As I think they should – Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter both had their countries overwhelmed with chaos, it’s not the sort of thing that just fixes itself over a couple days.
Dreamland right now is probably in a similar state, especially if one central government figure is now gone, and with no immediate replacement. I know Alex was declared king, but at the moment he’s taking care of other matters. Not sure if Nastajia has gotten her court to fill in as governmental representatives (which only makes sense, as they actually have experience if on a smaller scale), but even so, there would probably still be issues, especially with Nicodemus loyalists.
Anyway, I’m sure I could go on for ages with that.
The other is that Niviene’s proposal here seems incredibly ludicrous in… really, any respect. I mean, for her character so far, especially for someone who appears to be basically a recluse at this point, it makes sense, so not saying it’s bad in the story or anything. Just that Nastajia and Alex should reject it right out of hand, if they think about it.
For one, the idea of humans leading Dreamland in the first place seems unnecessary – they can’t be counted on to be there if they need to be, what with their earthly duties. Though with modern medicine, I guess you could induce a coma for someone. In a time of chaos, which it seems to be right now, you want someone who doesn’t need to take absences to be in charge.
For two, Arthur’s incredibly naive rule got him assassinated out of fear. He was going to bring warring nations into Dreamland and let them learn about it, even travel freely to it. And he hid that knowledge from the concerned residents of Dreamland because he knew they’d stop him. He was literally going to force people who were declaring war on a near-utopic nation into ANOTHER near-utopic nation, AGAINST THE WISHES of the people LIVING there, because he thought that that would magically make those other people stop attacking his FIRST one. He risked all of Dreamland in what was basically self-interest, no matter how noble his intentions were. If Nicodemus hadn’t jumped off the slippery slope and become a paranoid, controlling dictator as a result of the ensuing wars, Dreamland would have become much more stable as a result of his initial betrayal.
Third, neither Alex nor Daniel have any experience, training, or education on how to be a governmental ruler in the first place. Their royal bloodline, whatever it was, has been buried and forgotten, and they now live in a country that doesn’t even have royalty. The system that SUPPORTED those humans as kings – whether on Earth or Dreamland – is completely gone. Raising either of them up as anything more than a figurehead could seriously backfire, though Alex IS getting the firsthand experience he needs to GROW into the role. Not that he’s anywhere close to it yet.
For four (and relating to three) swapping Alex for Daniel is a very bad move at this point. Alex isn’t even really the leader of the group. Nastajia is. Alex may be the focus and the driving force of most of the conflicts so far, but Nastajia has been the one doing the driving. Alex’s role has been the front-line fighter getting a crash course in Dreamland, even with prior experience. And he’s been through the training needed to use his sword and his dream skills. Swapping him out, at this chaotic time, KNOWING that it would be a permanent swap, for someone with no experience, no training, no direct personal connection, no public recognition (Dreamland at least knows Alex by now), and nothing to make this world any less overwhelming… it’s a tactically unsound move no matter how you look at it. That’s basically why they appointed regents to kingdoms, when the true heir was underage or undereducated or something. And that was only done when the regular king was dead or missing, typically, or at least when the kingdom’s advisors and generals were still in place.
Nastajia may not know enough about earth nuances to say this, but it would make sense for Alex to speak up on some of it, and for her to logic out the rest. And especially with the personal connection she has with Alex, he shouldn’t be swapped out via the sword until and unless another method of entering Dreamland is found.
I wouldn’t be so harsh as to say ‘fark her’ but I strongly believe she is superimposing her own feelings towards the two, the fact that she’s pulling a Jean D’Arc moment here (It’s just a sword… in a field…) moment with Merlin & Arthur’s plot (assuming it wasn’t already completely undone by Nicodemus in the oh I dunno 600 real years time that he’s been in power?) shouldn’t be ignored either.
He’s already managed to successfully re-write Dreamland history, subvert most denizens to see things from his point of view (HOOMANS ARE BAD!!!) and only the most obscure points of the Dreamland even had part of the story.
The fact that they had that many supporters to form an army stuns me a bit considering how common it was to side with Nick in the preceding story.
Anyways, frankly she seems blinkered by the past and instead of considering their feelings she’s just storming over them as if they’re irrelevant, something that most immortals tend to think eventually from what fiction tells us!
take whatever length the story needs to be told, there is still alot to be done in this story, it is also important how long you make each chapter,right now the chapters are really long, which is kind of a good thing, so each chapter can have good meat for the story you could say. it is good to have a long story so i can good character development and story plot, but it important to go to straight to main point of the story and not beat around the brush and fill pages with useless stuff just for the sake of making it longer, that can get annoying real fast.
So here’s my thoughts on condensing the story from 8 chapters to 4:
If you can condense without losing anything essential, by all mean, condense. There are few things worse than watching one of your favorite series get bogged down by scene after scene that doesn’t move the plot forward, just because the author doesn’t want it to end yet.
If by condensing you would be cutting out essential plot points or explanations, well, first you should ask yourself how essential those plot points are if you think they can be cut. If you would actually be hacking a hole in the story, that’s not good, and you should take however long it takes to tell your story properly.
As someone else already mentioned, it felt like Nicodemus’s defeat was the climax of the story…and yet it’s still going. Perhaps that was a false climax and there’s a bigger and more exciting climax coming along, or perhaps the next eight chapters are tying up loose ends. I’m not really sure at this point. Normally, though, the story ends fairly soon after the climax (let’s ignore Lord of the Rings at this point, because it has about seven climaxes in a row), and so I’m not sure why you would need eight chapters to wrap up. You’re the one who knows the full story, though, so it’s your call. I’m looking forward to it either way.
The story progresses at the speed of the plot.
Go back, add a chapter’s worth of clarifying panels for print issues. Finish the series with 4, 8, 47 more chapters. Whatever it takes to get the entire story out in a clear, concise fashion.
I can’t remember who said it, but it went something like this: Don’t waste twenty words when one will do, but don’t cut out the necessary words no matter how many there are.
I think that if you can do it in four without it feeling “rushed” or “crammed” then do it!
BUT, if you feel you need the extra space to fully explain everything, then just “take your time” so to speak.
Good luck in the decision making!
We still have the power behind Nicodemus, the Nightmare Realm, that used our scaly villain as their puppet. They know that Nastajia and Alex are looking for Nastajia’s parents and will be ready with an intricate trap, probably hoping to catch Dan as well. We need to deal with these main villains before this story feels complete, and they are more dangerous than Nicodemus. And we just happen to have a handy ship for entering the Nightmare realm…
Alex is familiar with Dreamland and highly vested in it, whereas for Dan it’s more of an intellectual exercise. Alex’s love is in Dreamland while Dan’s is in the waking world. Dan is much better with Nicole helping on the research and leaving his brother to be the sword-wielder and likable ruler, with the pool for rare times when contact is needed personally. Kings need able advisers, and Dan could be the wise Merlin to Alex’s caring and active Arthur. The other sub-plots can play out while this larger part is going.
As this deeper part of the story with the true villains unfolds, we trust that Scot will see as he goes if he can put so much into four chapters maintaining his pacing and, if he finds that he needs more, he’ll know he has our support. After the first version of the story is done, he can go back and trim what he can then see as fat and use it for nifty side extras.
I don’t understand all the hatin’ on Niviene. It’s the truth. We may not like it, but it’s the truth. She does seem bitter, but for whatever reason I don’t feel like she’s trying to be mean, hurtful, or bring anyone down.
OH and I’d rather have the 8 long chapters. This whole time it didn’t seem to me at all like the story was nearing it’s end; only that we’ve had some big revelations. There are still a whole bunch more questions left unanswered (there are a whole bunch of “hows”) and I like it when it takes a while to get to the bottom of things.
Ditto! 🙂
Ooohh, a trilogy!
This, of course, assumes that Nico is actually dead. I still don’t think he is.
I can’t say I really know, but I’d say it seems like there are a lot of things I’d like to hear more about. It makes me sad to think your story is coming to an end (or to quote Doctor Who – your song is ending -) but all stories must end, sometime. As long as you do adress these issues, I will be fine.
You’ve mentioned them in your posts above, I think you know the issues that need to be addressed. It’s your choice of how long you take to address them.
The story (as with any story) should be whatever length it needs to be in order to be told. As such, there is no need for a specific chapter/page count. If you feel you can tell the rest of the story in only four chapters, without drastic revisions in style, then go for it. (Over the first 16 chapter there were places where I felt you could have picked up the pace. But drastically increasing the pacing now would leave the story feeling… uneven.)
Just make sure to do the story, the characters and the ideas you are trying to impart to the readers all the justice they deserve.
On a completely unrelated note, Nievene is starting to bug me as much as that homicidal centaur.
I’m going to step out of my usual character, and give the selfish answer:
I vote AGAINST condensing the remainder of the story from 8 chapters to 4. In fact, I would much rather see you DOUBLE the chapters from 8 to 16! As long as you can manage it – and enjoy what you do, of course! – I want Dreamland to be a significant part of my foreseeable future for as long as possible.
If I could somehow arrange it (without suicide, of course) that part of my final hour was spent reading the conclusion of the Dreamland Chronicles, and maybe posting a comment or two, my life would be that much closer to complete and utterly fulfilled.
Another possibility: trim the chapters, and don’t go into the other stories so much here. But then you have other stories to explore in new novels! Yay!
Scott, I think you should do exactly what you feel is the best way to tell the story. I wouldn’t mind learning more about the other characters if you can get the basic plot streamlined in an engaging and clever way!
About Niviene: Maybe because I’m in my late 40’s (ahem!) and have a house full of my own children from 23 on down to age 7, but I don’t see bitterness or any evil intent. What I see is a mature woman who has sacrificed everything to do what is right for Dreamland who doesn’t remember that not everyone has the same knowledge and wisdom of experience that she does. They have the same goal, but are just not seeing their situations from the same perspective.
Plus, in her desire to get to that goal (and maybe see Merlin again) and in her impatience to reach her goal, Niviene also asked the wrong question. It isn’t “What is HE still doing here when his brother is king?” but “Do you know how to get King Daniel here? No? Well, let me help you.”
“You are a princess, my dear…” Seriously, Scott, this struck an eerie chord with me because of my YA fantasy novel that I am currently revising. That whole speech bubble. Whoo.
I don’t think you should force yourself one way or the other. Make it eight. Make it four. Or even just plain make it six. What matters is this: what does the story want? What feels right?
And you’d dang well better have a proper denouement! 😀
Why not 2pi? That would be 6 full chapters and 2 very condensed. 2pi is very circular which seams appropriate for wrapping up a story.
The core question is not a very good one. You could have 4 chapters with twice the frames and text or 16 chapters with half the frames and text. That would not change the content at all. The first 12 chapters could be relabeled 1 through 6 without deleting anything. It would change the URL line for each page and the archive would have to look different but the story would be identical.
It might be more useful to ask if any of the first 17 chapters should have been cut out. I did not have that impression while reading them.
Interesting – I feel like there’s a loose end in the plot. Wasn’t there a scene where creatures from the Nightmare Ream came to the human world? That’s fodder for a new battle, a new enemy. It feels almost as if Alex’s story is a prelude to the complexity of Dan’s situation. How will Dan handle being thrust into a new world and a new role? How will Nastajia deal with being unable to see Alex? Will there be tension between Dan and Nastajia?
What is within the depths of the Nightmare Realm if children are being taken there?
Lots of possibilites!
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